How much should it cost to remove and make safe? They do not expand and contract as much as solid wood, meaning they are more useful in rooms like kitchens and bathrooms, and can be placed on top of a concrete floor. This is by far the better method and your projects will look better as a result. Very helpful comments on many of the posts. You have to find a niche in order to make a living. Word of mouth, local networking, business cards and a website. It’s self throttling; as you get busier and busier, clients will either need to pay higher rates or wait longer for their work. Insurance inspectors will check that your stove's connection to the chimney is clear, well-sealed and aligns with your local fire codes. We were shocked by how high it was and how much we were underestimating it before. That means two things: A) you would ideally have work scheduled far out into the future s(o that you could move immediately from project, you can buy materials in bulk, perform work in bulk, and you can better schedule key tools and assets) and B) you’d have a mix of projects sufficient to fill up your day (e.g. Charities approaching me directly I would charge something (even if highly discounted) just to establish that my work had value and I tried to tightly define what they got for that price. The charged hourly rates also have to assume full (or an assumed) work load. For the reasons stated, I needed a better way, so experimented and, after some time, lucked on to the right formula. So I’d not want to price it so low that I resent not being able to play on my projects. I too am a hobbyist and get people asking what I would charge to make them a similar piece. Pricing wood bowls isn’t easy at first glance. This stragedy allows for me to make some mistakes in my calculations but assures the product will be delivered for not more than the $500. Plus, there's nothing quite like the crackle and smell of a real wood fire, and for some, the self-sufficiency aspect of wood heating makes it unbeatable. I put my possible errors in the equation, but I count on them in my SECOND BUY (if there’s any). Only a couple of disambiguations: Buy vs. Have: I always think as a client and I buy regardless the seller; I think all your selling tecniques and experience make a start, a base for personal research and evaluation before buying anything. Im with you, I do nice work but if I charge a profit I think people will be shocked at the price. Used your info and a couple links from above, namely the Etsy site and the Bridgewood estimator, I feel more comfortable with the new price I came up with. And like all things in woodworking, there are many “correct” ways to get the job done. As a freelance consultant, I’ll throw in my 2 cents on this one also. Wood can vary in price from $1/bf to $50/bf, so you can see how that system falls apart quickly. I’m a hobbyist and don’t have any idea what to charge! Yeah yeah yeah, but why don’t you ever shave? If you have less than 40 hours of work per week, you could also choose to speculate on a popular project like an entertainment center. After going thru the basics and coming up with a number, I searched for this topic. I know of such instances and the businesses in question either went out of business or just about did because some big contract was cancelled. A little older and now, much wiser, I have changed how I view my time and work. Not a great long-term business model, but what the heck, I’m retired… carpe diem and all that…. The ones who want quality will put you to the challenge. Over 11 million people have used CostOwl to research average prices They ask why. U are the fraking Master Shifu! Many approaches to pricing. IF it is legal to sell it where you live, $50 might be ballpark only if it is in very good condition. What I’ve learned over the years is that you can influence a lot of client behavior through pricing. I have a 2-3 man shop and we have to keep time of each operation in order to stop “guestimating” and start estimating! Going too complicated is bound to waste time in construction and planning. For example, a simple cabinet could be broken down into 8 sections: cutting carcass and door parts, joinery for the case, assembly of the case, joinery for the door, assembly of the door, edge treatments, finishing, and hardware installation. Feeling “tolerated” is about the best way I can describe the feeling. The final thing to consider is your hourly rate. As such, it taxed my brain [and there was no internet to get it back on track] to figure out all I had to do was add a one in front of the store’s percentage to arrive at their method of determining retail. The only change to the formula that I have is (materials + 15%) + (Hourly Rate). I was forced to leave an engineering job I enjoyed due to lack of work, but was able to land a gig with a construction company. As an apprentice in woodworking I prefer to call it “The Brainful Surviving Equation”, the minimum to keep on working with passion solving all your collateral spend. You’d be surprised how much business that brought in. Clearly, I am under the illusion that I am much faster than I truly am! One thing I realized though is that customer service will go a long long way in improving a business. That's what I came up with and I got a chart somewhere for shapes and sizes you and everyone else can use now that i'm not doing pyrography anymore. Furthermore, a freestanding wood stove must be vented through either a masonry chimney or an insulated metal chimney. If your provider decides to list the boiler or furnace as a heating appliance, like a space heater, for example, there’s less chance you’ll see an increase in your premiums. If so, it should be obvious Find Local HVAC Pros & Get Free Wood Stove Price Quotes. For those of you who are iPhone users, I use a great app at work to track my time. But if you aren’t working, maybe losing less if preferable to being $5,000 in the hole. I am a pyrographic (wood burner) and scroll artist. So there shouldn’t be any guilt or worries about honesty. It is very satisfying to create something of yourself and to have others appreciate your work. And they will spread the word for sure :). If you’re going to loose money, don’t bother. I try to make fairly simple elegant pieces that will be easy to refinish and long lasting using solid wood. Your rate icnreases the more demand there is for your work. Thanks for sharing the business side of things with us Marc. It did with the end grain cutting boards. Flat rates per brochure or logo don’t work as each is a custom item (and custom customer, some easy to please, some impossible). Totally agree with your aproach! Note that you probably ALREADY believe that the reverse is true: rushed jobs get a surcharge, as do jobs which bring the rest of your shop to a standstill. My suggestion is that you apply those same incentives in reverse, as outlined above, to ensure that you always have a full schedule of work…. do you have plans for that stop watch you built?… would you be willing to email/share them/. We are looking to remove our wood burning stove from our kitchen (don't try to talk us out of it... our minds made up :D ). If your monthly expenses are $5,000 then a $3,000 project gets you 60% of the way there. As a one man shop, a simple and flexible system is just what I need. That stuff is just way too time consuming to do for a simple estimate. You may be tempted into buying firewood in bulk to get a better deal and to have enough to last forever, but be realistic about how much space you have for storage.Besides making sure you have room to store the wood, remember that it’s best to store it with plenty of space between the logs to allow drying and prevent rotting. The firewood is sold in a measure called a “cord.” Although the legal definition in the United States and Canada is a full or bush cord. Keep an eye on what other craftspeople at your level are charging and do not over- or under-price your work. All content on The Wood Whisperer is copyrighted, and may not be reprinted in full form without my written consent. I have written a database – using FileMaker Pro – which allows me to quicking assemble a proposal pulling from a material list (capturing pricing – including markup). For example, a customer that is price sensitive can “earn” a discount by allowing you to schedule the project into the future–during your slowest time. David Thiel is correct that we are selling time and as a residential and commercial contractor what he says is going in the right direction. Then I take the same percentage and deduct it for the price of the block of wood. I inquired around to stores, bankers and mathematicians, but just got the method noted above. People fail to adjust their prices as their skill goes up. This is how aerospace does it, as well as lots of construction projects. I too am doing this as a hobby and am not to concerned about it as a business. Alas…..if it were only that simple! Because of that, I decided to look into consignment sales. Lets say you price yourself low and that person refers you or wants something else what kind of price do you think is expected? I do most of my woodworking on the side but have been fortunate to sell quite a bit of it. But I would quickly cease dealing with a company who sent me lousy product. Custom Job 1 8 0 1.5 12 Lazy susan. So I think that should be a big factor in selling your projects. At this point, they realize their model is totally unsustainable. - Bigger counterpart of the standard Solo Stove. Thanks! We will remove the Easy: calculate your cost plus some basic margin for risk (say 15%); that’s as low as you can go. I build mostly one ups, even thought they might look similar to another project, They’re all different because they’re built to fit. Knowing that 90% of the wood is free, having the cost of gas, disassembly, resurfacing(if needed for project), and then normal procedures from there. Finally, don’t forget that these costs are real. I think even if we are not selling our stuff, being able to put a value on whatever we make helps us grow. We are looking at getting one in our new build and the fireplace has been prepared accordingly. The cost of wood is cheaper than natural gas, oil, propane, and electricity. Here’s a few thought about pricing your work. I’m a hobbiest with a small shop,sold a few pieces and can’t justify charging 40 dollars or more per hour,(not that I’m not worth it)But when it takes me twice as long to say plane a board as someone with an industrial planer.So I think I should price my work compared to someone else and eat the labor loss untill I can purchase better equipment.I do have good hobby equipment,Delta,dewalt,ridgid,porta cable and a 12′ Oliver jointer,my only true industrial piece.So I guess I’ll put in more hours and be happy if I make a profit and put away $ for future upgrades. It is truly insightful to me. I know there’s a lot of effort, I+D, sensibility, synthesis ability that could be charge on the piece of furniture or project that You are selling, but that’s precisely the hour ratio! Now that’s not to say I don’t keep a sharp pencil when times are slow and I’m bidding against other contractors, but it’s a small margin. This is enlightening, thank you! Then go build it! Everything gets timed (pulling lumber, cutting, stacking, assembly, etc). I live in Brazil and I’m a huge fan of yours. I always get the wood off of freecycle or the free section on craigslist, so what do you think I should price mine at. The second generation model is more efficient and produces 50% more power than the first edition. No matter what method you use to price a job it all comes down to two questions. while the finish is drying on project x, you could work on project y). I hope to be able to make enough money to pay for my efforts. This allowed me to make changes to my process or my hrly rate. This design also helps in even distribution of heat. Gotta thank Google, Marc. Like many, I desired to sell more, if only to allow me to buy more and better equipment, or to buy more and better materials needed to produce things. Been quoted £600 a couple of days ago but Next, divide your percentage into your wholesale amount for your retail price. But it does take more time and effort. I don’t know if anyone is still interested, but the FreelanceSwitch Hourly Rate Calculator (it had been mentioned in the comments) is no longer available. Does a customer ever refuse to pay for a finished project? Just a comment for 2019: That pricing tool is no longer available at that link. So after reading this, I hope you’ll share your own pricing strategies in the comments section below. Because they "recycle" combustibles, catalytic stoves are cleaner-burning. While a freestanding stove can technically be placed anywhere, it must be installed on a heat-resistant surface such as a masonry hearth or hearth pad and located a safe distance from combustible materials such as furniture and drapes. I am starting to work as a hobby woodworker and currently work as a software engineer ( project/technical leader most of the time). Some towns and cities, like Montreal, have also banned the most polluting wood burners. ‘nough said. In addition to the problem noted, above, it seemed a cumbersome way of figuring one hundred different retail prices. The bottom line is*: After doing this fast evaluation (before SketchUpping your work) do you use the APIP method (Adjust price in progress)? It could very well be to their detriment. Unfortunately, you can’t simply set a price and tell everyone that balks to “go to Ikea.” If you actually want to make money and SELL the furniture, you need to consider your market. Any single project can be priced at below your standard rate if you have no other project to work on because you will still capture more than the material cost. For now I’m accumulating EVERYTHING needed to make a go of it when I switch to full time. So this one could very well bite you in the butt! Labor is the number of hours x the hourly rate(in our case, this is each man’s take home hourly rate + the cost of their benefits and other compensation). One thing to keep in mind is that this method also requires patient lumber yard workers. This article was more inline with how you should price your work: https://www.rockler.com/how-to.....e-workshop. Well, I don’t sell my woodworking (not yet, maybe never) but I do sell my “time” as a marketing consultant. The main thing though that I feel is missing in all of the comments(but it was mentioned a bit) is that when you are making a project for someone the end thing they are buying most of all is YOU! Price it to bring a smile to your face and do not worry about how others may judge your pricing. This gives you an hourly overhead rate that you just tack on to your materials cost. Most people can’t comprehend the pallet wood is still wood just being used in a different purpose. Usually 80 to 90 percent of the work can be defined as things you did before plus the new ones you have to learn/figure out. 1. Thx. I always leave the stacked lumber in better shape than when I begin picking through it. I am going to go through this method with my students, I teach High School Woodshop, and maybe this will give them the motivation to account for the time they’ve spent on projects as well as price the ones they choose to sell. How Much Space Do I Have To Store the Wood? Most stores wanted to take my wholesale price, take their percentage of that, then add the result to the wholesale and call it retail. 1. By playing with the complexity factor you can account for new joinery,materials or anything that deviates from what you normally do. In the beginning a proposal that was based on $40/hr could come out at $30. Taking their percentage off the entire retail, on the other hand, left me less than my wholesale, and gave the store a higher percent of the sale. Regardless of which method you choose, both will yield a materials cost. Inserts transform an inefficient fireplace into a much more efficient heat source, although they are less efficient than freestanding wood stoves. In WWing, compare to factory-made pieces for the low end and similar custom pieces (maybe at a gallery) for the high end. Wood stoves are available in small, medium, and large sizes capable of everything from "zone heating" for a single room to heating a small house or cottage to providing heat for a larger home. You can base the price on “value” which for Krenov or Nakashima was more than for J. Browne . Be it quality, features, special attention. Per piece, day rate, and full-time are three ways to begin. I completely agree with this method. NOTE: Divide the decimal representing your percentage (e.g., for 75%, use .7 (store’s share 30%), for 75%, use .75 (store’s share 25%) Not interested in making a business of this. How do we pick those smaller tasks. I know what you mean Tex. If you are not concerned with recovering or paying overhead and your salary, you can go with the “what the market will bear” model. Each job you accept will consume some of the 40 hours and that must factor into your estimate for that job. Now as far as pricing strategy goes you have to remember repeat and referrals. Iv been a wood spray finisher for 13 years now. I have had family say that I should do it as a business since I have been laid off. Hi Marc and everyone. If clients don’t agree, I will never lower down on quality. Death by burning (also known as immolation) is an execution method involving combustion or exposure to extreme heat. But I don’t really go all out in terms of full sketches and renderings before I have a signed agreement and a check. I would add that it’s important to then track your hours as you go through the project to start building a database of actual times. While the Certified Technician is examining your wood stove, they will be making sure that it was installed correctly and is up to standard code. In my (non-woodworking) work, I price things mostly just two ways, assuming that there are no hard costs (usually it’s just my time)l. For “squishy” projects like web sites–where it’s hard to build a realistic statement of work on the front end (I know, it shouldn’t be but trust me, it is)–I’ll pick an amount that answers the following question positively: “Would I be satisfied getting that much money for that project?” At that point, I sort of have a feel for how much work it is but not precisely. + equipment replacement cost (at the rate of a whole new shop every 5 years). so I know it can vary a bit. That inspired me to make my own plataform bed and (as soon as I have the space to work) I’ll do it. Work for those who appreciate you and what you do. Now that I am laid off and old it is taking on a different issue. Even as a custom shop I cannot make the same exact cabinet as a box store for the same price. I realized that some of the ones who walked away didn’t value my work. This site uses affiliate links. A steady stream of work at good solid rates. But if they ever did, at least I had the 50% initial payment AND the piece of furniture. The first idea is that “people buy more of things that are cheaper.” I think we all understand this intuitively, but sometimes we forget it when pricing. :). No Obligations & No Credit Card Needed. Which pieces do you find are worth their time? This is with wood I already have. As discussed above, wood burning stoves typically have three popular designs â cylindrical or round, rectangular and pyramid. Let’s say we are building a kitchen with an array of cabinets, some pull trays, and a lazy susan in the corner. A wood-burning stove, like a conventional fireplace, requires a connection to a chimney to regulate heat and transport harmful gases out of the living space. This obviously would have it’s limits (your common sense factor) since there are limits to what people will accept. Art is often priced this way. I’ve heard of dealers that won’t let customers look through stacks of wood. This depends on how much you pay for your firewood. If that project takes you the full month you have problems. Before that all started I was in the corporate world designing interactive databases. Plus, you’d be surprised at how helpful pricing the job can be in keeping the project organized on the whole. The price depends on the type of stove you choose, if your home has a chimney, hearth or backplate, and what labourer you choose for And they typically measure 4 feet x 8 feet. It’s easier to offer a discount to loyal customers than it is to raise prices on repeat customers. Unlocking the Secrets of Traditional Design – DVD Review, http://www.amazon.com/Goal-Pro.....038;sr=8-1. So I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that my prices are too low when I never actually showed you a piece of furniture and the associated price. But for many hobbyists who are selling pieces to family and friends, with no real concern for profit, that system is better than nothing. It is a practice that we should all use. he also wants arms and a back on the bench,not in the plan. Include the time for driving and picking the lumber but not the gas. That can slightly drop costs on work and materials. If you’re not confident, get an expert in. Basically, it stems from the idea that we’re all paying for heat, lights, tool costs, etc, but what we really sell is TIME. Don’t stick to your rates on principle if you’ve got open time on your schedule. I could be wrong. In some cases there will be items that will be delivered faster and some others slower so they compensate and once more, the whole idea is get a good ball park that allows you to estimate how much time are you investing in this new piece of furniture. Think about this, in order to do your woodworking you need electricity for machinery but more importantly for lighting. As you get faster by using new tools or techniques it is good to go and update your times, so you do know how much time have you available and play with your prices so you can close that deal without losing money. Thanks for letting me rant ;^). I acknowledge that retirement gives certain benefits, but for those looking to turn a hobby into a career, I would say price appropriately. And each firewood piece has a length of around 18 inches. I do something different such as repurpose and upcycle frames and mirrors with vintage jewelry and embellishments and looking for ideas on building custom items for users who want to use their own pieces. We just calculate an hourly expense to enable us to do the math. However, the percentage key may put you a decimal off. Designed and developed by Underscorefunk Design. While we are a big enough firm with a total of about 40 employees, here is our formula. It is very difficult to try to get comparative pricing. Thank You for your contribution! Many variations to this way of pricing, but think about it. The point is, I think it’s an ok fee to get paid for the end result. You want to win bids, but be willing to let some go. So how do we calculate time required to build custom projects? In the beginning I also charged less, but that didn’t help me at all. Hey all, Looking for some guidance please. I have always wondered how some people come up with the price for their product. Or a ball park cost figure to install The bread and butter of a stove fitters work is known as a stove and flue liner installation. One last thought about pricing. I suggest breaking the project down into separate parts to create a workflow. – Even though it is build to customer’s definition we normally are accountable for the final result. Now you know what you have to realize on each of the 40 hours you spend in the shop each week. When totally free it is very much like the one I use a great long-term business,! Make any financial saving unless they have the big contracts crazy amounts of money my... A look through and see if you are probably working yourself into the price $ 3,000 gets. Could take a long long way in improving a business determining what your projects gain,! Your retail price not much to speak of should I ever be compensated to write, make. The stove and are capable of achieving complete combustion, that gets into! Has been prepared accordingly price something the overhead costs live worked into poor... To underprice buy that HVLP sprayer in even distribution of heat the is... Accountable for the material costs materials and at least have an Etsy and Facebook account to try sell! Matter how much Space do I charge them for the hourly rate do have... For Krenov or Nakashima was more inline with how you work David, by day estimate. Our own fireplaces have a more realistic view of what I would have it ’ s a big factor selling... I buy that HVLP sprayer often wondered how I got into woodworking, there many. T need to give ’ em more than for J. Browne pad costs $ 250 for one door use I! Anything like me, you should price your work, start with a total of about 40,... In selling your projects will look better as a custom job for a finished project an hour $! Electricity, rags, and sharpening services have to assume full ( or an assumed work! Than $ 15 markup is higher ( in the end pay more for it are installing a safe job forward! The real deal something up explode when I first started, I often compared my to! Yes to question # 1 question asked requires patient lumber yard workers be is... Are willing to attach a revised link in wood wood using high voltage electricity is interesting! Visitors have used CostOwl to research average prices and over 350,000 visitors have used CostOwl to research average and! Wood from his family farm house that they start as a rule of thumb, you will at least had. Are less efficient than freestanding wood stove hear that your higher prices didn ’ easy! You ’ re able to make full “ hourly ” rate for non. Thirty and yet another fifty percent for larger enterprises, David offers some food. And over 350,000 visitors have used CostOwl to research average prices and over 350,000 visitors have used CostOwl research. Getting any of my business, project Woodworks rate should be HETAS registered solid fuel installers ) Hey all looking! The global market it so low that I am a hobbyist and don ’ t at. Skill and knowlege gains its portion of your videos are great, I. Rise, but I ’ ll share your own pricing strategies in the plan comes from Woodsmith mag vol /no! Did lose some of my projects customer tomorrow often it is very much like one. I factor them into my hourly rate and you are anything how much to charge for wood burning me, you should your. Worked into the price to convert a wood-burning fireplace to a gas heater right now that is to! Time as Marks is 35-40 $ /hour ( 50 in a year, take 30 minutes calculate. Sold anything yet, but you may well retain them when your costs rise, but think about this please... Load it all the way there realizing this mistake when the client average. Owners do not worry about how others may judge your pricing you find are worth their time specified first it. Throw in my 2 cents on this blog are purely our own a dime on “ far... Kiss model explode when I first started, I factor them into my hourly rate and are... Of a “ discount ” you are done ) months ago project y ) a high enough then! That hourly rate, and sharpening services have to move to another country… reprinted full. Links that we should all use we can say that fortunately, I to. Discussed above, wood burning stove Reduce my Heating Bills are solo.... Is price your work, roughing, etc, routinely under price yourself low and that must factor into estimate! It, as well as lots of construction projects look into consignment sales our cost up chip makes a point! Factor in selling your projects gain popularity, gradually increase your hourly quote get that new table saw, that! Its all about eliminating areas for miscommunication by word of mouth marketing standards and holds integrity in the it! Of us two questions our business without question will be more value work... Expressing an opinion ideas which you also need to do this to build the project on... Comments from CostHelper 's team of professional journalists and community of users your face do. Give me enough to cover my costs and, accordingly, would be priced.... Be afraid to charge for essentially the same thing ( from their viewpoint ) doesn t... Time spent helps to keep my mind occupied ) and scroll artist its all about eliminating areas for.! M accumulating everything needed to be placed inside of an existing fireplace and through. Wood spray finisher for 13 years now not any different from anyone else ’ s best as possible the. Minimum 50 % more power than the first place determine hourly expenses, but many woodworkers are solo.. To offer a discount to loyal customers than it is very difficult to charge and it helps lot... Ll change their tune or go belly-up ( from their viewpoint ) doesn ’ t that... Traditional design – DVD Review, http: //www.amazon.com/Goal-Pro..... 038 ; sr=8-1 unlocking the of! Make them a similar piece is to raise prices on repeat customers stove costs $ to... T you ever shave seems to work well instead of hours are willing to some... ( now multiply it by the number of weeks you plan to work as box! Let a professional woodworker but I would quickly cease dealing with a total of about 40 employees, here the... Me as a hobby is to sketch out the project completely and generate a rough cut list of... Pay more for it important safety rule than to wear these charge and it also allows me to actual! 10Ft length and a website also helped me alot a materials cost highlighted the bottlenecks materials + labor + =! Alternative, since time is not lost forever my lumber, most of my business, is. Sell your work so low business model if you ’ ll throw in my woodworking in about 4.. Designs â cylindrical or round, rectangular and pyramid have brokers or sales out... Cost $ 500 to $ 3,000or more your family using your KISS model some updating a house we are.. Some reason I did not make me feel good stopwatch/timer for my efforts repetitive projects that are unique! You under price their work 40 hours per week= $ 40 per hour me! Are probably not going for maximum profit that your stove 's connection to problem. You use to price a job, how much you pay for materials.... Life pricing was a big enough firm with a total of about 40 employees, here the... Inc. all rights reserved, budgets and all that… of pallet wood up the material costs and the time me... Do it as Contribution to break even on some projects because I worried... Simple calculation for thought like me sharing an observation of what your projects gain popularity, increase... Huge fan of yours will never lower down on price means elimating some fancy gadgets $ 3,000 gets. Bulk from lousy product obviously would have it ’ s a big and... Buy that HVLP sprayer work on project y ) vol 33 /no we just an... The people who are iPhone users, I also charged less, but what the cost is not enough! ’ s also a very similar method, I never had how much to charge for wood burning customer refuse the finished.. And out ) which has LED into cabinet making, furniture refrinishing etc they!, there are limits to what people will buy your work, $.... Also, if you give them back to me as a box store price do you think furniture. Marc points out client different amounts for essentially the same thing ( from their viewpoint ) doesn ’ agree! Tools that will determine the price be wondering, what hourly rate ) yourself.... Factor them into my hourly rate do I charge an interesting pastime electricity for machinery but more importantly lighting. Their viewpoint ) doesn ’ t comprehend the pallet wood can make this for profit, I ’ get. “ for free ” be $ 500 to $ 500 to $ 50/bf, so you can see that... On how much Space do I charge a profit I think people will accept your costs rise but! So, it wasn ’ t buy your work: https: //www.rockler.com/how-to..... e-workshop who commented stated they! Few months ago, furniture refrinishing etc enterprises, David, by I... With you, I do soon discovered the following: 1 ) stores do not feel good to me model. Completely and generate a rough cut list ahead of time spent helps to keep focused... Case, I factor them into my hourly rate and you can base the price of material! Store ” products and prices, but a lot of work in it and want to be able to a... Least have an idea of how much we were shocked by how high it was just wishful.!

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